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Ask-A-Scientist Podcast E2: Dr. Allison Master, social psychologist

Listen to our podcast episode or read the transcript below featuring Dr. Allison Master, social psychologist, as we talk about how stereotypes are important and where motivation comes from.

Learning how to focus on your own journey and comparing yourself to yourself where you were before and not necessarily the other people around you.

I think a good way to counter stereotypes is to sort of talk about all the ways that our experiences have made men and women different.

Confidence is good, but what you want is sort of an enduring confidence. You don’t want to be confident only when you’re being successful. You want to grow that confidence by realizing that you can overcome challenges, and you can overcome struggles. When things are hard, that’s what makes you stronger.

Tanya: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Ask-a-Scientist, a Science Journal for Kids podcast where we explore what it’s like to be a scientific researcher by, you guessed it, talking with researchers. Today, our guest is Dr. Allison Master, who is a professor at the University of Houston in the Department of Psychological Health and Learning Sciences. Allison did her bachelor’s in psychology at Yale University and her PhD in developmental psychology at Stanford. Today we will talk with Allison about her work and research, but we will also get to know the person behind the scientist. So, hi, Allison.

Allison: Hi, thanks so much for having me today.

T: I’m really happy to. Hi, Miranda.

M: Hi!

T: So our first question, Allison: did we miss anything important in your introduction? Maybe something that’s a big part of your identity, which is a key word in your research?

A: Haha. Well, you know, I feel like when you introduce people who are researchers, people who are in academia, a lot of times we talk about all the successes they’ve had along the way and, you know, the grants they’ve gotten or awards they’ve gotten. And what we don’t talk about is actually, you know, all the rejections they’ve had, all the obstacles they’ve had to overcome, all the challenges they face.

So I just want to reassure people that, you know, I’ve gotten to where I am today not in a, you know, in an effortless, easy breezy kind of way, but there were lots of hurdles all along the way that I’ve had to overcome. And, you know, my journey to get here as a professor has even, you know, taken an unusual way. So hopefully we’ll be able to talk more about that.

But I just want to encourage people that when we when we talk about the, you know, the successes, remember that there’s a lot of failures that we also don’t always talk about and acknowledge.

M: Absolutely and we’ll definitely talk about some of those challenges that you faced when we talk a little bit more about your research. Thinking about identity and what kind of experiences people go through that form identities: when do identities form and how do they actually change throughout a person’s lifetime?

A: So that is a really big question of how we form our identities and how they change. I mean, identity starts to form, you know, as babies, as young children, we start to figure out, you know, who we are, how we’re similar to other people, how we’re different from other people. You know, it sort of starts with recognizing ourselves in a mirror, that we’re a person, that the person in the mirror is us that we control. And as we go through preschool, some of our identities become really salient to us, especially things like gender. You know, if you’ve ever been to a preschool. Sometimes we talk about preschoolers as the gender police, because they are definitely enforcing what girls are supposed to do and what boys are supposed to do and they start to categorize the world in that way.

Once we get older, as we start to get into middle school and high school, our identities start to become really important and nuanced. And we compare ourselves to other people, and we think about these are the things that make me special. And we also, at the same time, really want to belong to groups and feel connected to other people through our identities. So our identity, I think, is constantly growing and changing. As we become adults, we take on all kinds of new identities, too: as we go into our careers, as we become parents. Lots of identities that shape the way we see ourselves and the choices that we make all throughout our lives.

T: So identities change and shift throughout life. And as you say, they start very early. I noticed this. I have a five-year-old daughter who already tells me, okay, these games are for boys. They’re boys’ games. I don’t play this kind of games, right? To me it’s incredible because I’m trying to raise her being very mindful about stereotypes – and we’re going to talk more about stereotypes in a moment – but I’m trying to avoid exposing her to these or identifying them for her to see and still! They are already a part of her life, being in preschool.

A: Yes, it’s so hard to avoid them. You know, I am the same way that, you know, I’m trying to minimize the effects of gender stereotypes on my own children. I have a daughter and a son. And my daughter, she had a female pediatrician. She knows many women doctors. One of my best friends at the time, she was a doctor. But one day, you know, my daughter came to me and she was like, ‘Well, men are doctors and women are nurses, right?’

Like somehow these ideas, you know, they just get inside of our heads, you know, if it’s through like the books that we read to children or, you know, the TV shows that they see, or, you know, there’s all these sort of insidious ways that these beliefs about gender roles or other kinds of stereotypes get into kids’ heads.

And so a lot of my work has been figuring out, you know, what are those stereotypes? How do they affect our motivation and the things we want to do and the choices that we make? And then what can we do to counter against those stereotypes and sort of, you know, help protect kids so that they’re free to, you know, explore any opportunities and make any choices without feeling constrained by those stereotypes.

Allison at work (Credit: I Am Lab)

T: Right, so they could achieve the best version of themselves, right, without being victim of a stereotype. So, you are a working scientist now, but when you were back at school, do you remember what were your favorite subjects? Did you have the identity of someone who wanted to be a scientist or a psychologist or a researcher or a professor at a university?

A: You know, my mother is a teacher. She was a preschool teacher and she worked with children with special needs. So I think when I was a child, my goal was to become a teacher. And I, you know, I’ve sort of ended up back into teaching.

But when I was in school, my favorite subjects were math and English. And I, you know, loved reading books. And so it’s kind of funny to me now that, you know, instead of being, you know, a mathematician or someone who, you know, is, who works in English, now I’m a social scientist. So actually, I’ve ended up in science, which was never my favorite subject in school.

But what I really love about doing research is that I get to do all of those things. So I get to I do a lot of writing, I write, you know, articles and chapters about my research. I do a lot of math, I do a lot of statistics to understand my data and to, you know, figure out how to answer these research questions that I’m so interested in. And I have, you know, a really deep appreciation for science as a way for, you know, to help people in the world of being able to ask these questions about, you know, what influences people, what influences children, and then how can we help them, as you said, you know, be the best versions of themselves that they want to be.

T: And answer those questions in a scientific method and not just based on someone’s beliefs, right? But going back to your school career, did you take statistics in school?

A: I think I was in college before I took statistics, but I was always, I always really loved math. And, you know, in, in middle school, I remember doing like math competitions. And I went to a special magnet school in high school for science and math and got to take really cool, interesting math classes about, you know, fractals and complicated math modeling and really interesting stuff. And then I thought I was going to be a math major in college. Um, but I got to college and I took this math class and I just didn’t find it that interesting.

And along the way I started taking, you know, these intro psychology classes and they were fascinating. You know, how we could, you know, how we were learning so much about how people think and how we could use that knowledge and that research to help students in schools. And that was what really inspired me to go get a PhD in psychology.

T: So you’ve been, during your studies, you’ve been to two Ivy League universities: Yale and Stanford. And at the beginning of the conversation, you said that you’ve had a lot of challenges and a lot of rejections along the way. Can you tell us a little more about that now? So maybe students or undergrad students, school students or undergrad students could feel a little more confident about their future academic careers.

A: Right, you know, um, so, you know, where people end up going to school doesn’t necessarily mean that, you know, they got into every school that they apply to. I’ve been rejected from schools. And as a, I think, as a graduate student, it’s also a really, really challenging time because you’re becoming an independent scholar and independent scientist. And you’re gaining all these new skills, but when you look around, you’re surrounded by all these people who are farther along in their journey than you are. And they already know how to do all these things, they’ve already had a lot of practice at them, they’ve gotten very good at them.

So I think the process of graduate school is very much a process of learning how to focus on your own journey and comparing yourself to yourself where you were before and not necessarily the other people around you, because they might have published papers already. So, for me, i felt like i was kind of slow to publish papers. I would submit manuscripts to journals and they would get rejected many, many times they would get rejected before they found a home. So those are the things that we, that don’t always show up on people’s CVs. So I actually made my own CV of, like, my failures. It was up on my website. I’m not sure if it is currently. I think it might be. So I call it my failure CV.

You know, learning is a process of getting better and embracing mistakes and embracing failure because you’re, and seeing the value in them as learning experiences. And that really helped me a lot as a graduate student.

M: Thinking about kind of your journey through graduate school and becoming a better researcher and learning how to actually do research. Here at Science Journal for Kids, we recently adapted one of your research papers and published it in a kid-friendly format. It’s titled, How Do Gender Stereotypes Impact Girls’ Interest in Science? So we wanted to talk a little bit more about kind of the research that was included in that paper, especially about stereotypes. So in a nutshell, or kind of basically, what is a stereotype and what roles, either good or bad, do stereotypes play in our lives?

A: So stereotypes basically are just, you know, beliefs about groups of people. And they can be positive stereotypes, so we could think, ‘oh, boys are really great at math,’ and that’s a positive stereotype. They can also be negative, you know, we might say, ‘girls are not good at math,’ and that would be a negative stereotype. Or it can be sort of comparative, like ‘boys are better than girls at math.’

And so the thing about stereotypes is that they are really useful and we use them as sort of these mental shortcuts a lot of the time. And sometimes they are true and they help us and they make it easier for us to see patterns in the world and to make predictions. But they also have a lot of drawbacks, because you know when we make assumptions about an entire group of people, clearly we’re going to be wrong a lot of the time because you know if you think about girls as a group there’s a lot of differences between girls they’re not all alike. And if you try to think about differences between girls and boys, actually, they’re mostly similar, you know; there’s tons of similarities, there’s huge overlap between, you know, the characteristics of girls and boys, because we’re all people, you know, we’re all human beings. And so there’s, you know, so much commonality.

And so the problem with stereotypes is, you know, they make us put people into these boxes. And so we ignore the fact that not everyone is going to fit into that box, or that we’re gonna be putting a lot of people into the wrong box and ignoring a lot of the similarities between people. And so…

T: So not only can stereotypes be wrong, but they could be hurtful, right?

A: Yeah, absolutely. And even the positive stereotypes can be bad because, you know, for example, we have a lot of, you know, racial and ethnic stereotypes in the United States. And so we might have a stereotype that, oh, you know, Asian students are really good at math. But if you say that to an Asian student, it’s not going to make them feel good. It’s going to make them really uncomfortable because now they’re going to start worrying about how else you’re going to stereotype them and what else you think about them. So even the positive stereotypes, you know, they send this signal that we’re using stereotypes, we’re relying on them, and we’re not thinking about you as an individual and getting to know you as a person

M: Interesting. So thinking through your own experiences, either through school or through your research endeavors, have you ever faced any gender stereotypes and what have you done to combat them?

A: Yeah. So when I was doing the math competitions in middle school, gender was so salient because, you know, I’d be on, you know, this math competition team surrounded by boys and my gender was so salient and people talked about it all the time. They’d be like, ‘wow, you’re the only girl, you’re doing so well as a girl.’ And so it was just constant reminders of my gender.

M: How did you maintain your motivation to keep going with that kind of thrown in your face all the time?

A: Yeah, well, I think there’s something really interesting about these stereotypes about who has ability and who’s good at things, which is that we have, you know, this desire to prove people wrong when the stereotype isn’t good about our ability. We’re like, ‘well, I’m going to show you, look at what I can do.’ And so I think even these, you know, these negative stereotypes about our ability, sometimes they push us and they motivate us to prove the stereotype wrong.

And that can be good. It can help us achieve greater success. But sometimes it can go too far and it can make us really, really stressed about trying to disprove the stereotype. So, for example, there’s a lot of negative stereotypes about Black students in the United States, about them not doing as well in school. And so there’s a lot of Black students who worry about that stereotype, and it makes them constantly try to disprove the stereotype and work as hard as they can. And that can lead to a lot of chronic stress, exhaustion, and health problems, too. So, even when stereotypes push us, there can be negative consequences from that, too.

T: Right. So I want to talk about two specific types of stereotypes that were mentioned in the research that we published. So in that study, you talk about interest stereotypes versus ability stereotypes. And just to clarify, interest stereotypes are as if women and girls disqualify themselves from certain areas without even trying them first. So it’s like saying, ‘oh, this is not something that girls would be interested in,’ even before they get to judging if girls are good at it, which would be the ability stereotype. Am I understanding the difference correctly?

A: Right, you know, is my group interested in this kind of activity versus is my group good at this kind of activity?

T: Right. So, which of these stereotypes is worse? Which is more prevalent?

A: Yeah, so I mean, they’re certainly both bad. And so one of the reasons we were that we wanted to study these interest stereotypes is because there hasn’t been a lot of research on them that a lot of the research is focused on these ability stereotypes. And there’s research on something called stereotype threat, which is that, you know, if you remind people that there’s a negative stereotype about their group’s ability, it actually makes them perform worse, because they start to get worried about confirming this stereotype. So it creates all this extra pressure on them.

But when we’re think about women going into STEM fields, it’s not just about their ability, it’s also about the idea, we think, you know, ‘women aren’t interested in computer science. That’s just something that men really enjoy a lot more than women.’ And, you know, in thinking through, you know, what makes people choose careers, what makes them want to do different activities, it’s not always about whether you’re going to be good at something, because you could be really good at something and have no interest in doing it, and you’re not going to do it. So it’s, you know, the idea of enjoying something, liking something, being interested in it. That’s what really makes you choose to, you know, sign up for a class or a summer camp. Or you know, sign up for a college major.

So that interest, I think, is really, really key and really important. And so we wanted to do some research to find out, you know, which of these really is more strongly connected to kids’ interest in different STEM fields.

And so that’s what we found is that when girls believed in these interest stereotypes that favored boys when they thought that, you know, boys are more interested than girls in computer science, The more the girls thought that, the less interested they were themselves in computer science. So, you know, the more I think my group is not interested in this, then the more that I’m not interested in it either.

And, you know, the ability stereotypes we found some effects, but they were just not as strong.

And we also found, when we looked at how much kids believed in these different stereotypes, we found that kids were more likely to agree with these interest stereotypes than the ability stereotypes. Because, you know, I think these ability stereotypes, they’re really like weighted, like you don’t want to say one group is better than another group. Or, you know, maybe you always want to say your group is better. And then there’s also a lot of reasons that we don’t want to say one group is better than another, even if we might secretly believe it.

But I think it’s more socially acceptable to say, like, girls English and language arts more than boys do or you know boys they like computer science more than girls do. Because you know we think we’re just sort of observing patterns of what people like, and it doesn’t sort of send send off those like danger signals of you know danger danger we’re stereotyping people. We just sort of think oh yeah girls and boys they like different things; that’s just part of gender and what gender means. So we found that kids are more likely to agree with these interest stereotypes and that they were sort of more linked to less motivation among girls when they believed in the stereotypes.

Allison in the field (Credit: I Am Lab)

M: So one of the goals of your research is to come up with some solutions or have some suggestions for people to combat these gender stereotypes. So what can adults do to help kids not fall into these pitfalls of gender stereotypes, either interest stereotypes or ability stereotypes?

A: Yeah, so I think the first thing to do is just sort of pay attention to what you’re saying to kids, and you know, the opportunities that you give them and just making sure that you’re being completely, you know, completely fair and equal and egalitarian.

So I experienced this a lot as a parent, like we’re, you know, we get invited to some kids birthday party. So what birthday present are we going to buy them? Is it going to be something that conforms to gender stereotypes or something that doesn’t? And I try as much as I can to give presents to kids that don’t necessarily fit with the gender stereotypes. In our house, we have the girl toys, we have the boy toys, because I have a girl and a boy. And sometimes they want to play with their gendered toy, but a lot of times they surprise me in how willing and interested they are to play with the full spectrum of toys and the full spectrum of books in our house.

So I think one is give kids opportunities, even if you don’t think that they’re going to like them, just give them the chance to try it.

And then also in terms of thinking about what we say, being careful not to make these kinds of gendered assumptions when we talk to kids about what we think they’re going to like or not like.

And then something else that I like to point out to people is that if you say something like, oh, girls are just as good as boys at math, the way we say that, it makes us think, oh, ‘If you have to say that, is it really true?’

M: What made you say it, right?

A: Right, that like saying that they are just as good as is, you know, the fact that we have to say that means that probably actually they’re not, or there’s something going on there.

So, so instead of, you know, saying this group is just as good as that group, you know, in the way you talk about the groups, keep the groups equal, like, you know, girls and boys, both like this, girls, boys and girls, both like that. Just paying attention to the way that we talk about these things.

T: Another important thing is to actually answer the kids’ questions in some ways, acknowledging that such disparities exist historically, right? So my daughter, for example, age five, asked me why women couldn’t be kings of France back when France was a monarchy. And how do I explain this to her? I have to acknowledge the stereotypes and the discrimination and the limited opportunities for women historically, but then I can’t pretend that these things are not not existent anymore.

A: Right.

T: How do you do it? What tips do you have?

A: You know, my basic tip is that kids have a really good understanding of what’s fair and not fair. And so if you can frame things in, you know, you know, things were set up in this way, and it was really not fair to women, right? You know, kids will be very indignant about that. They’ll be like, wait a minute, that was not fair. That’s not okay. We shouldn’t do things that way anymore. And so you can talk about how things have become more fair in certain areas, but you know not completely and that we’re still working toward making things completely fair.

But I think it’s really, really important because, when it comes to gender, we have this tendency to sort of, you know in research we call it essentializing: this idea that men and women are just fundamentally different. There’s something intrinsic to these groups that makes them really, really different from each other. So I think a good way to counter stereotypes is to talk about all the ways that our experiences have made men and women different. That it’s not that, you know, if you take a baby girl and a baby boy and they’re both wearing diapers, you can’t tell the difference between them, but we start to treat them differently. Research has shown immediately we start to treat baby girls and baby boys differently.

So, if you look at all the ways we treat girls and boys differently throughout their lives, and how all of these opportunities add up to create these like systemic and structural inequalities in the way that people are treated, then it’s not so surprising that we see some of these gender differences when people are adults. So I think framing kids on experiences and treating peiple unfairly, I think those are good. You know, ways that even pretty young kids can understand.

M: Right. So let’s talk a little bit more about kind of the mindset of a child that might be put in one of those stereotypical situations. So thinking about maybe a difficult environment or an unfamiliar environment. And so we actually have a question from a reader who is an eighth-grade student. And I’ll let her go ahead and introduce herself with her question.

Gaurika: Good morning, ma’am. My name is Gaurika Gautam. I’m 13 years old and I reside in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. I want to know how do I build my own confidence and belief no matter what others say about girls and maths, etc. I do good in maths, and I am motivated. But one bad exam shakes my confidence, and then I find it hard to get at that level of determination again. I feel that hard work is not translating into my results. Secondly, the kind of time I need to put into practicing maths is also a challenge. What would you suggest ma’am? Thank you.

A: Hi, well, Gaurika, thank you so much for those questions. I think those are really, really common experiences for girls and for women as they continue to take classes in math and science. You really have touched on a lot of really important points about what other people say about girls and math, and then what happens when you don’t do well on a test and it shakes your confidence.

So I talked earlier about growth mindsets, and I think that’s really important for girls in STEM too, is that, you know, even when we don’t do well, when we fail a test, it doesn’t mean that we don’t belong. It doesn’t mean that we’re not good at that. But what it means is that there’s something that we don’t understand yet.

And Carol Dweck, she talks a lot about the power of the word “yet” and you know in growth mindsets that you know there’s a big difference between feeling like ‘I can’t do this’ and ‘I can’t do this yet.’ And so my hope is that you know if you fail a test you use it as a learning experience to say, okay there’s something here that I’m not understanding. And sometimes hard work doesn’t get you all the way there. Because you can put in a lot of time, but sometimes if you’re not putting in effort in the right way, it’s not going to get you anywhere. So one thing you can do is sort of pause at that moment and think, okay, I need to change my strategy; I need to reach out to other people for help, because I can’t get this yet. And trying new ways, trying new approaches, is really important in those situations.

Confidence is good, but what you want is sort of an enduring confidence. You don’t want to be confident only when you’re being successful. You want to grow that confidence by realizing that you’ve you can overcome challenges and you can overcome struggles and you know when things are hard that’s what makes you stronger. And so I think that’s how you build really lasting confidence is not by you know getting A’s on every test but realizing oh I failed that test but then I talked to my teacher, I tried a new strategy, and then I got a better grade on the next test. That’s what really gives you confidence in yourself as, you know, I am a strong person. I can handle anything that the world throws at me. So that’s the kind of confidence that I hope you can, you can build in yourself.

And it’s not easy, you know, you doing that takes, you know, it takes time and practice and, you know, sort of reframing the way you think about situations and the way you handle negative emotions and, you know, really trying to see, to think about these situations in ways as opportunities for growth.

And then another point that you made that I think is really really important is when you talked about how the time that you have to put into practicing is also a challenge. And there’s really interesting you know research about sort of like the, what happens to women in STEM when they feel like they have to put in a lot of effort or when they sort of feel like they’re putting in more effort than other people. That that can kind of shake their confidence or their sense of belonging in STEM fields too.

And so one thing I want to point out is that a lot of really important things take effort. And we don’t always see the effort that other people put into things. So when I was a student at Stanford, there was something that they called Stanford Duck Syndrome. And that was this idea that if you look at Stanford undergraduates, everyone looked like they looked happy, you know, if you walk around the campus, they’re all sitting outside in the sunshine, they look relaxed. But what you don’t see is how hard they’re working, and hard – you know, they go back to their dorms and study really, really hard. And so the reason they call it duck syndrome, is that if you think about ducks on a lake, they look very peaceful above the water, but if you look underneath the water they are all paddling furiously to get around the lake.

So I think what’s important is that we don’t always see what’s going on underneath everybody else. You know, it’s hard to have to put in effort in math, but a lot of other people are putting in a lot of effort, too, that you don’t see. So I just want to say that that’s a really normal thing, and I want us to normalize this idea that everybody has to work hard to succeed. And if it looks like people are succeeding effortlessly, one, that might not be true, and then two, if someone is succeeding effortlessly, then we need to give them some bigger challenges, because it’s time for them to start challenging themselves, too.

M: Absolutely. Allison, you mentioned when students are having problems, especially in those STEM fields, going to a teacher. What are your thoughts on the role of female role models in education?

A: Yeah. So, you know, we talk about the importance of role models a lot. And so there’s a, you know, I think, you know, representation matters a lot. You know, if I look ahead and I see that someone like me can succeed in this field, you know, that means, you know, it’s possible for me. And if I look and I don’t see anyone like me succeeding in that field, then I start to question, you know, is it possible? Can I succeed? Do I belong here? And so representation definitely matters.

But I think it’s also important to sort of talk about, you know, the characteristics of effective role models.

Because, you know, sort of tying back to a lot of the themes I’ve been talking about today, if you see a role model who seems like they’re succeeding effortlessly, and they never struggled, that can really be demotivating. But there’s there really interesting research studies that, you know, if you talk about role models who are like you and they struggled and then they got better and became successful – that’s a really effective role model because it helps you stay persistent, you know, through the challenges, through the ups and downs, because you know that that’s common, that it happens to lots of people and you can still succeed, you know, despite those kinds of challenges.

M: We have one final question for you. Your research is so great, and there are so many places that you could go with it. Let’s just say, for the sake of argument, that you, some funder out there, decided that you are where it’s at and gave you a million dollars. What would your next research project be?

A: Oh, that’s a great question, and I’m writing a grant right now, so I have my views of what I want to do. Well, so, what has been really interesting to me in, you know, when we share our research with teachers, I’m always really interested to hear, what do teachers want to know? And one issue that keeps coming up a lot is, you know, that idea of co-ed versus, you know, just girls in STEM and in computer science. But there aren’t a lot of really careful scientific, you know, controlled experiments seeing, you know, how does it affect girls if they’re, you know, if it’s only girls in that learning environment versus both. So that’s a study I think that I’d really like to do.

And another study I’m really interested in doing is exploring the idea of role models and what really makes an effective role model because there’s so much out there about ability stereotypes and people try to spread this message of role models who are really good at what they do. But, because of these stereotypes about interests, that might not be the best type of role model. So does it matter if a role model is framed as someone who is really, really interested versus someone who is really good at this STEM field? And how might that be motivating for girls in different ways? So that’s another kind of study I’d also really love to do, that we can really start to explore the nuances of role models. And not just say girls need more role models, but what they really need are effective role models for them.

M: Excellent. That sounds really exciting and we look forward to adapting that work when it comes out.

A: Thank you.

M: Thank you, Allison, so much for your time. Your answers have been enlightening and very informative, and we really appreciate you taking the time to be here with us today.

A: Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

M: Did you know that you can directly read one of Allison’s scientific papers stripped from its complex scientific jargon and made understandable to readers as young as fifth grade? The link is in the show notes. You can also just Google its title, How do gender stereotypes impact girls’ interest in science? Or go directly to www.sciencejournalforkids.org and search for stereotype. You can also check out our entire psychology collection while you’re there.

T: That’s all for today. This podcast was produced with help from eighth grade student Gaurika Gautam, research assistant Natalia Torres-Bejar, sound engineer Maria Mikhailova, and host Miranda Wilson and me, Tanya Dimitrova. Thank you for listening.

Subscribe to this podcast to receive notifications about the next episode of Science Journal for Kids’ Ask-a-Scientist. Till next time!

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